My concept of the Wiki is for it to provide a historical reference of competitive games, such as competitions, updates, player profiles, &c.

Others will be adding strategies & gameplay information.

My vision, as expressed in other places, is to create something similar to what TeamLiquid has for Starcraft, but here on ESR and for Quake Live.

So far, I added a skeleton of the QuakeLive part, trying to reflect this vision. I created a few notes on how to turn the skeleton into real content, and created a few pages as example.

another QL wiki \o/

>:o

There's no mention of QL in the official post. The Wiki is what is made of it.

Edit: Much like this site.

Why MediaWiki? :(

easiest thing at this time. i personally might not like it, but what would you suggest?

Im personally used to DokuWiki. It has a lot of plugins, and for me it has easier instruments to page edition.

http://forum.dokuwiki.org/thread/621 haha
looks like it stores all data in text files, this doesn't seem compatible with the approach of integrating wiki with esr

Cool guys!

I've added some stuff but not much. I added what was on the Cooller wikipedia entry and put it on his page. (I added a little bit about his personal style in there) I also added my own aim guide on the aim page, but didn't go into details with it.When I have time I will go and add some more.

Maybe you should have events to get people on esr to add more information? Like "best wiki addition of the month" or something.

We need a page for Jamerio too, to detail all his baftas etc.

I had some ideas for tying Wiki efforts into the main site, but these developments take time. There are some other things going on that require attention, too, but these ideas are being considered. :)

Edit: Page for Jamerio could really condense future threads. We put a link to his Wiki entry above every comment, and there's no need for any discussion.

I don't think feeding Jamerio's vanity even further can be healthy, for him or for us.

Well, I don't like to include the testing baftas or I would have too many.

But I was on the dev team as a game designer for the Sequel of GoldenEye 64, aka perfect dark.

So you can add that if you want. But it was a while ago, I never been into trophies after I won many hundreds as a Motocross and BMX racer as kid.

But you can't aim.. :(

I meself writed rafas topik abutt his wininngs :)))))

Maybe there should be a more elaborate license than the ownership guidelines on the main page of the wiki.
I propose CC-BY-SA. Wikipedia uses CC-BY-SA and GFDL.

Furthermore a way to dump the wiki database for an ordinary user is important.

/e: imo the content should belong to the public/everybody not only the community (Who belongs to the community?)

There is still no link to acces the wiki in the upper right corner of the website for now.

I added and started the players pages (Cooller, strenx, etc)

The structure of a player profile page should be standardized... currently they're each a bit different.

*edit* Maybe with templates ( http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates )

I think the format of the Cooller page is the best.

obviously

Wiki needs a main page that highlights random content, new entries, news from the ESR site, and such. I'll look into doing this, but I will be slow. :)

news?? no no

Not news entries added to the wiki. Just a feed or something of latest major stories. This way if somebody lands on the Wiki from a search engine they can be led gracefully to the site.

ok, probably best to do ajax way

Does content on WikiSpaces transfer easily to MediaWiki? Or are the formats different enough to warrant complete reconstruction? We have a lot of map articles at the wikispaces QL wiki, which someone could port over if possible, and if MuffinMan is okay with it.

Doesn't look like it... although this converter might help: http://wiki.df.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Wikispac..._Converter

Is there any possiblity to upload pictures? For example, I want a gold/silver/bronze medals to use :)

Cypher needs those, badly

Follow this form and instructions if no one has uploaded those cups yet.

http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Special:Upload

Here is list of files (no cups there):
http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Special:ListFiles

Thanks. Already done rapha's/cypher's/fox's 'Achievments' sections :)

I did fox's achievements :/

edit: You edited it, nice job!

Is the Equipment section for a player necessary? I would prefer it to be further down at least.

a lot of people are interested in it, its relevant and a good way to supoort the companies that invest in esport. should be in there imho. doesnt need to be on top though

Maybe just Keyboard/mouse/headset though. I don't think anyone really cares what power supply Rapha uses.

Yeah, I have mixed thoughts on including that stuff. It might be good to support brands that sponsor players, but perhaps the wiki should just provide "essential" information.

Well then, I'd say mouse, mousepad, keyboard, headphones, and monitor are essential.

We've installed Cite.php, which makes it easier to cite sources. If you've added content (text or images) to the wiki already, please read the usage instructions and reference your sources. Thanks!

Started adding info on the weapons, but I'm not sure if I did it right, I simply edited the "QuakeLive: Game Description: Weapons"-page. Also I will have to take pictures of the different weapons, will do that tomorrow.

i think it would look better if the table had two columns
(havent looked into it much, otherwise i would have tried it out, should be an easy thing to do)

Lol had to think a bit about the "to columns" now I get it, will do it right away.

+w :)

I merged the content from "GameDescriptionWeapons"... looks like some of your stuff was on that old page, rather than the new one.

A couple small things:

* Sections should start with "==" (not "="), since MediaWiki treats "=" as top-level (see this page).

* Add two blank lines between "==" sections to improve readability.

Thanks 8)

I think it looks great like you have formated it right now, I will add de rest of the weapons tomorrow together with pictures and then start HP/Armor and Items.

I see that Fudge has been nuked.

This is a good start to having a useful wiki.

we need to be consistent about how we name when they are mentioned in articles, guess we should go with the names and not with the short handle

Be cautious! Some players might think that you disrespect them if you frag them with the Gauntlet in a situation where a "normal" weapon would be more suited for the job.

hahah oh esr, you never fail me

Allready saw a lot of people raging about it (and was raging about it myself a couple of times) also it's in the "Trivia"-section ;).

is this a quake wiki or ql only? because i see lots of players who probably never touched ql.

not any quake wiki, its an ESR wiki, which means any competative game

Good point. I think the historical part should probably entail Quake 3 as well, in not all Quakes. It's best to let people add things, and then restructure afterward.

So under what category would community work go? ... a completely new section or?

... anyways here it is for now:
wiki community work

lol heartless adding himself to the players list - thick skin :D
also players like polos, unkind etc not really actual for QL.
there should be a hall of fame or smth for players like them tho

its an esr wiki, not a ql wiki btw

yeah i was wondering about some of the stuff on there tbh considering its an ESR wiki

News editors, if they are so inclined, may now be able to link to player profiles in the wiki, as well as past events. This is good.

Will there be a link to the wiki in the esr navigation?

when it gets organized and fleshed out better.

One topic we have not discussed yet is the use of a proper legally binding license. The only post I saw was this.

Thoughts?

It belongs to ESR and the authors for the time being, without stating otherwise. I think it's okey to incorporate CC or other licensed content, but it should be marked as such.

just make the wiki cc-by-sa.
better now than later due to relicensing.
free (as in freedom) information for everyone.

Why stick to the current 'community license'?

By 'ESR' you mean the (undefined) community as stated in the wiki?

no, ESR is a private legal entity. no, it's not 'free', and no we don't want someone copying content without permission.

That is exactly how you should not create a wiki.

/e: What i meant with 'ESR': The wiki states the content belongs to 'the community' (Whatever that is???) and not ESR as a private entity.

What demiurge means to say is that it is being carefully considered. I assume that because the free availability of information from sources other than ESR has been taken advantage of, licensing will be generous. Couple this with the community orientation of the site and ESR as an organization, and that assumption is further solidified.

Licenses that hand over all content without responsibility, however, are dangerous. ESR has important assets, in this order:

1. Users
2. Data, contributed by users

Protecting the relationship between ESR users and the data they submit is as important as ensuring that the general public has free access to such data. These two goals are incorporated in the code of ESR, as well as guidelines, and are driving principles behind the development of the organization.

This is not a liberal movement.

I see wikis in general as rather liberal. Biggest wikis I know are liberal in their licensing: Wikipedia and wikia.com.

The content of the wiki should not be an asset of ESR. The knowledge is collected by numerous people. ESR only provides the infrastructure.

I do not see how the users of ESR are protected by keeping the content of the wiki non-free.

I do not see how you would take advantage of freely available information in a malevolent way.

What you see and do not see will be considered when consideration occurs. Thanks for your thoughts.

I hope this consideration will occur soon. Furthermore, liquipedia uses cc-by-sa.

Why do you hope so? Are eager to make a $0.99 iPhone app out of it?

I just want to know whether I am tilting at windmills.

I have never owned a smartphone. I thought they have web browsers which could display a wiki.

if you just want to spread "copyleft", you're probably tilting at the windmills. http://www.esreality.com/?a=disclaimer - this page has been unchanged for a long time, and a wiki is not a new development.
if, however, you want to contribute non-CC or any other content to the wiki or site, you're welcome to, any time.

The ESR wiki is definitely a new development for ESR. Maybe it is time for a change? And actually I am only talking about the wiki considering copyleft, not regual ESR.

it's just a different interface for the content ESR always had. for example, I'm considering if its worth importing the existing ESR events into the wiki DB to display a timeline interface with it.

Do it. Make it look sexual.

It's an ongoing occurrence. Anything you have to say that is of value will be considered, regardless of whatever arguments occur in these forums. If you have something you think matters, please express it. :)

That is exactly how you should not create a wiki.

No, it's exactly how one should create a wiki. The creators of the content are in charge of the content they created. At this moment, I am not for telling those creators that anyone else can take their content and do whatever they want with it. The creators can take that responsibility on themselves.

There are problems with that.

Since an author does not give permission to create derivative work of his contributions automatically, other authors are not able to correct, alter or enhance these contributions.
Example: An author writes: 'Coller won IEM Kiev.' Others are unable to easily correct the spelling mistake in 'Coller' which should be 'Cooller'. They would have to delete the whole sentence and then write the whole sentence again correctly.
Probably this would not matter anyway because the contribution of the author does not reach the threshold of originality. But this can only be determined by a judge.
This seems ridiculous and it is legally much safer to simply use a copyleft license.

Another problem is that what happens with the content of the ESR wiki if it were shut down forever. With restrictive licensing it is lost since you might only reach few of the authors to request permission to reuse their content. Thus you cannot simply copy the data and provide it on another website.
I think with copyleft licensing you can protect the work of the community and keep it available in such a case.

The last point is also valid if someone wanted to print or spread the content in any other way. This person would have to ask every author of this content for permission. I do not see how this would help the community.

I am trying to find the best solution for the community, not selfish individuals. In a wiki it is better to leave selfish motions behind and focus on the benefit of the community. This can be done by using a copyleft license.

the wiki implicitly grants permission to modify content. authors implicitly own their original works. there is nothing to solve for the time being.

To be legally safe that could be written on the wiki. (also 'community' could be defined in a more elaborate way)

Do you not see the danger of a possible loss of the whole wiki without liberal licensing?

I am not sure whether it would be legal to include CC content from other (Quake) wikis even if it would be marked as such.

i would agree with these sentiments, priorities notwithstanding

'The content of this wiki belongs to the community. If you contribute, you give your work to the community for good.'

So what does this mean exactly?
Who belongs to the community? A person who plays Quake? Or a person with an account on esreality.com? Or a reader of esreality.com? Or any ordinary person?
Would a member of 'the communty' be allowed to copy the content of the wiki and republish it or even relicense it?
What rights does a member of 'the community' have referring to the content as the content belongs to 'the community'?

Who cares.

People who care about the integrity of the site and community, I guess.

I do too, but there's no need to wax philosophical about it. It's not something that requires a huge amount of debate.

There's no philosophical waxing. It's a guy seeking valid definitions to unclear terms.

no, its not. i already explained in clear terms what belongs to who in clear terms about 3 times. definition of a 'community' is an obvious philosophical argument, barely tangential to the concept of 'clear terms', and has a full right to exist in it's philosophical motto state without being legally defined.

Regardless of how you try to negotiate these questions into some category of discussion, the issue is relevant to the wiki and should be addressed. When it is addressed is a separate issue.

What you have explained so many times is irrelevant, because you are not the wiki. What you say to people has no bearing on the wording of the wiki, unless you define these vague terms and update the wiki to reflect some greater structure that better addresses the needs and concerns of ESR, or what I like to call 'the community'. You are missing this crucial point. This is not a practice debate, it's a user taking some time to highlight a discrepancy related to the site.

there is no discrepancy, and there is no issue.

the fact is that the content belongs to ESR and to authors, and there is no blanket license other than that. this will not change for the foreseeable future. this is fully in-line with the current statement on the front page.

'the community' CAN NOT be defined in clear terms. the statement of 'belonging to the community' means it belongs to whatever the hell you think 'community' means whatever way you think 'belong' is defined.

I see. Well, I am the community, therefore it belongs to me. I expect you to turn over the keys within 24 hours, thanks.

there are no keys

I'd like some made then, please and thanks in advance for your cooperation.

why are you thanking me for your own wishes??

Your comment is now my comment.

have another one

have another one (c) Herr

Please remove your infringing content, which is actually mine, from this page, which is also mine. Thanks.

also people who care only about their own benefits

i didn't write that, so I don't know what was intended.

As it was added by Memento_Mori, is it actually legally binding for the contents of the wiki?

Wiki improvement suggestion: important pages of the wiki (e.g. main page, disclaimer, about) should not be editable by every user (e.g. only admins).

http://www.esreality.com/?a=disclaimer
This disclaimer only states that content belongs to 'to individual contributors or advertisers', not to ESR.
Why do you state that content also belongs to ESR?

It's not legally binding because it's not a license, or other legal statement.
Because it's submitted to ESR.

If the statement were not intended to be a legal guideline by ESR, it should be removed.

I strongly doubt that simply submitting content to ESR gives ESR property rights to the content.

why? it's an informative statement of general intent

yes, how do you think unmitigated communications work?

From what I understood the statement 'The content of this wiki belongs to the community. [...]' is wrong because there is no mention of it on http://www.esreality.com/?a=disclaimer .

so you don't understand it's not a legal statement?

Is the statement endorsed by ESR?

To my knowledge statements like 'Do the fuck you want with it.' or the one in question are legally binding.

It's not a legal statement, it's not legally binding. Your knowledge does not seem to be correct.

Assuming it is not legally binding, the statement is misleading since there are no legal grounds that it is correct. Thus, I propose that the statement should be removed.

There don't have to be any legal grounds for that statement to be correct. It states something about the personal feelings of the author of the statement, and those who are in charge of maintaining content.

So the statement is endorsed by ESR?

I don't know, I'm not ESR. I do like it and agree with its intentions.

** Question for admins **


I was playing around with image formatting and I wanted to use this page as kind of a tester(first link). I picked aerowalk and wanted to use files already uploaded on ESR(2nd and 3rd link) so each map page can have a level shot. But I guess you have to go through your wiki-uploader because it seems like the wiki site picks off images from a particular location(4th link). For me it seems somewhat redundant to have 2 of the same images uploaded. So would you guys find a work-around for this? or should people just use the wiki-uploader regardless.


http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Quake_Live:_Com...itive_Maps

http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=longpost...amp;page=1

http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/20...rowalk.jpg

http://www.esreality.com/wiki/

re-upload. maybe it can be integrated better in the future, but the sites should have independent content for now.

There's no way to have the wiki look into the existing files directory, and actually use it for uploads, as well?

there is, but i dont want to introduce any unnecessary dependency

I see.

Only back in Liverpool now, have my PC again.. Should be able to contribute.

** Question for admins **

Hey are you guys gonna have a global CSS for random stuff like tables. I made a table and was tempted to add a background color but I thought it would be tacky having random tables with different settings all over the wiki.



edit: Also what kind of naming convention do you guys like?
It kinda bugs me having pages with long names like this:

Using_the_in-game_menu_and_presets

I have a prefered method but it might varry between people so I figure I would ask before it gets out of hand :D

Yeah, the ESR color theme is going to be extend on the wiki, so not adding own colors is a good idea.

About urls, I guess we can look at the options, but it's pretty easy to come up with something 2-3 words usually. I think way more stuff can be put on a single page than is being done right now.

"Using_the_in-game_menu_and_presets" -> "quakelive_gui"

Unfortunately the wiki started without underscores for spaces.

I'd like to ensure each game (or category) is able to have its own version of a page (e.g. "Getting Started"), and that it is possible to determine the page contents from the URL. Beyond that, I'm likely fine with whatever people want to use.

So, I guess this was a pretty big failure. Even this thread has been accessed more than 3x as much as the wiki itself. The recent changes for the last 30 days are pretty much just Mememto_Mori. Even fudge911 is a more active contributor than 99% of the site.

The coaching initiative seems to have gone under, and this doesn't look far off.

I'm in the process of writing up shit now, don't be hasty young vedic. :P

It took a month?

Well I move across australia, found a job and a new home in that time fyi. Just started ok!

Basically the stuff TronicGgG brings up put me off.

"Maybe there should be a more elaborate license than the ownership guidelines on the main page of the wiki.
I propose CC-BY-SA. Wikipedia uses CC-BY-SA and GFDL."

To me it doesn't seem to be a very straight forward answer, and there isn't any page on the wiki that would clear it up atm.

I think what the wiki can do for ESR is bring players/people in. That's about it, I don't see any reason to have ESR owning any sort of rights to the content created. Why would it bring players in? Because it would be a central portal with game specific theory, topics, knowledge etc which wouldn't normally be allowed on a general wiki. :D

//On the side note/rant.. what is ESR exactly? is it gaming in general or a quake/fps site? do they want to be gotfrag and eventually sell the website and then just die? Why do I go to this site? shrugs

There are already Quake wikis, though. They didn't bring players in. If they wanted to do this at all, it would have been a better idea to just contribute to existing wikis.

ESR is a general gaming site - see here.

Got links to these wikis?

EDIT: This is what I got from 2 pages of google.

http://quakelive.wikia.com/wiki/Quake_Live_Wiki
(don't like the colors and organization)
http://www.wegame.com/games/quake_live/
(not a wiki lol)
http://quakelive.wikispaces.com/
(not bad, looks promising but doesn't have much content, and its not part of a community website, so It doesn't need to attract new players/users )
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/951788-quake-live/wiki
(nothing there)



Also I kinda meant it as a rhetorical question. Like for me I go to ESR partly to see what "QL" tournaments and news is on the front page. If there was other games like SF3, SC, CS, halo I would filter that out :D

http://quakelive.wikia.com/wiki/Quake_Live_Wiki

There are a few others, as well, but this probably would have been the best.

To me it doesn't seem to be a very straight forward answer, and there isn't any page on the wiki that would clear it up atm.

What not clear? Wikipeatia is a pure non-profit that has nothing to do with any commercial activity as far as it is concerned and does not accept any contribution when a return is required.

This site, right now, is privately owned and has so far existed thanks to for-profit business arrangements with for-profit companies. There is no viable non-profit way for it to exist, that have been established, therefore it must assert a certain minimal degree of ownership that is optimal in light of competition with other private enterprises. It could absolutely happen that this ownership is relinquished at some point if it makes sense. Right now is not the time, because a decision like that can't be made without any reservations because it's nearly irreversible.

Yet, I don't understand your reservations. What I said is that you can do w/e you want on your end, such as marking it as CC. Because content is not automatically CCed, it simple means that you are not automatically agreeing to a third party reproducing it. This puts the choice in your hands and is compatible with goals of those who want to control who publishes their content. This is a publishing industry standard that gives you choice and doesn't force "freedom" on you.

So I guess this post is a pretty big failure. Even this thread makes 3x as much sense according to some arbitrary criteria I pulled out of my ass.

Arbitrary? I'm showing that the thread discussing the wiki is more popular than the wiki itself. I didn't even include the other wiki thread, which would have made it far worse. It's a failure in that it ended up just like every other Quake project - tons of support and discussion beforehand, and then no actual interest when it comes time to do the work. How long before the few people doing tiny bits give up?

Why isn't there a link on ESR to the wiki?

Because it isn't finished. I already asked this :D

By USSR Demiurge +++| - Reply to #56
when it gets organized and fleshed out better.