last post: April

Happened around the time raythenoob disappeared and dutra was banned. The drama was exquisite.

I clicked the link and opened a few threads.

.....
w
h
a
t

You think so? Try that :
http://pipclan.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=genedcsi

Yawn

Y NUKE?

ATTICA ATTICA ATTICA

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone is a qualified csi ql detective.

Show us what ya got!

to be honest i think the idea is to actually bust out cheaters, not just throw random accusations around. csi:ql gotta keep that trust from the community you know :)

but of course, show us what you got :D

They keep lurkin in the dark! so all you guys thinking to cheat might want reconsider!

approve noob admins, what is to fear? a consent by the more experienced players on esr?

this exposed shit is shit, it doesn't need consent any more than a turd. everyone knows it's a turd, and it smells.

exposed was just something to laugh at, and a discussion on it instead of the lol@gr8 posts in those old threads (on esr) could have been nice, but my post was about something different, a random accusation that has been copy/pasted by the director further down

you know why it's good to have a discussion on demos and accusations?

it's not. you either have a doubtless detection and send it to id, or don't.

implying id's detection is doubtless.

i think your sentence is missing a subject. i wonder what it is, since if you meant to say 'you are', your sentence wouldn't make any sense, since I'm not implying anything. I'm saying that you should not publicly discuss anyone being a cheater, that is, make accusations without being absolutely sure. if you are completely sure, the best course of action is have id, as only authority on the matter, make a judgement, and accept the outcome. doubtless or not, the outcome is more informed. without such basic respect, presumption of innocence and self-doubt, all you have is a bunch of newbies screaming hacks every other game and harassing decent players.

it's not 'admins', it's me.

f* director noobs, go hack some forum and approve this

What was wrong with the post? Did you watch the demo? It seemed very obvious to me.

Send the demo to sync

it was the first post by a new account with no reputation sullying the reputation of a known player with 10 seconds of 'evidence' inconveniently sandwiched in the middle of a demo. i did not approve your post because of your lacking reputation, apparition's existing reputation, and because there is an official venue for reporting malicious activity available in quakelive.

here's your original post:

http://www.qlranks.com/demo/view/6878

3:40-3:50

r_shownormals 1

Decide for yourself.

only transparency can satiate the ravenous hungers of the violently curious esreality masses. come, users, peruse of 3:40-3:50 and let us settle this matter in congress so that balance may be once again achieved in this spectacularly vast cosmos.

PointGamer? Should have known.
undertaker12? There should have never been any question.

i don't understand.

Nothing to understand, really. Typical undertaker12 behavior.

wh accusations on hektik, wonder where I have seen that before..

>>> "it was the first post by a new account ..."
What is he supposed to do? Post a bunch of random shit for a few days just so it's not the first post?

>>> "... sullying the reputation of a known player ..."
This is not http://www.quakelive.com/forum/
So now the mods are going to censor every post or comment that "sullies the reputation of a known player"? Going to be very quiet around here.

>>> "... with 10 seconds of 'evidence' ..."
What did you expect? 10 minutes of blatant aimbotting? And a demo is always going to be circumstantial.

>>> "... inconveniently sandwiched in the middle of a demo. "
It's always going to be somewhere in the middle of the demo isn't it?

>>> "i did not approve your post because of your lacking reputation, ..."
Even if a fool speaks the truth, it is still the truth. (I think this falls into the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.)

>>> "... apparition's existing reputation ..."
Apparition could not possibly be cheating because of his "reputation"? Apart from being logically fallacious, what do you even mean with "reputation"? He has never been caught before? He has a high rating?

>>> "... and because there is an official venue for reporting malicious activity available in quakelive."
But then why allow all the other threads about cheaters and not this one about apparition?
Also if the submitter suspects bias or partiality by the game devs regarding this case it makes sense to post elsewhere to inform and/or get feedback.

ESR is the biggest quake community by far, EU and NA centric. Conclude what you want from that sentence.

Known player = proven that he knows how to play, based on strategies and skill displayed. Would be hard to prove that cooller is cheating, so it would have to show some full matches that are entirely clear.
BTW some known players have been banned because of threads that started here.

This is probably the biggest reason why the post wasn't approved: 10 seconds is not good enough evidence, no matter how "blatant" it is, especially on hektik. Everyone has their "omgahx" moments, especially on small maps.
Not even 5 plays are enough: it has to be full matches. Also context is quite nice.

It is inconvenient.

A noob cannot judge or appreciate why a good player takes decisions (duel) or how he is that good overall (all gametypes). In the end duel is a game of match knowledge and a noob doesn't know most of its sources, while he won't understand how someone hits or dodges so much. That's why noobs think everyone is cheating in QL, being a game in where most aspects of it aren't visible on screen and a better player makes a bigger difference than all current games (excluding killstreaks).
Lets be more concrete: if you are 1200 elo and hit 30% on lolca then there's absolutely no way you can tell a 2000 elo player is cheating, unless completely obvious 90% acc. aimbot or looking straight to the opponent through the walls for the whole match. That's why accusations have to be made using your account, not anonymously.

Responded already. He is kind of lan-proven actually, though I agree it isn't a 100% guarantee of him being clean (see zeroql and sombra).

This one was way too much. If you are so sure about making a case against him, then provide more evidence than 10 seconds and explain why it is fishy. And it's not like I'm protecting him or something, as he isn't exactly beloved here and it'd be fun reading a founded cheating thread about him.

edit: already put the demo on the renderer. Should be on http://www.youtube.com/user/GamingMovieDb/videos in 1:30 from now. I hope it is something absurd in order to start an 'investigation', all for my personal enjoyment.

Sorry for inconviences I would make a youtube video and make it easier on people if I knew how to. I think this evidence is very good and even better then the ZeroQL videos. Some people have thought undertaker12 was suspicious in the past.

And who might these "people" be?

they 'might' be anybody.

What is he supposed to do? Post a bunch of random shit for a few days just so it's not the first post?

i don't know what he's supposed to do, nor have i indicated that he should do anything.

This is not http://www.quakelive.com/forum/
So now the mods are going to censor every post or comment that "sullies the reputation of a known player"? Going to be very quiet around here.

there's a big gap between me disapproving one post and your assertion that the 'mods' are going to censor every post or comment that sullies the reputation of a known player. would you please elaborate on how you reached this dramatic conclusion so that we may initiate into constructive dialog?

What did you expect? 10 minutes of blatant aimbotting? And a demo is always going to be circumstantial.

i didn't expect anything.

It's always going to be somewhere in the middle of the demo isn't it?

that depends on whether the moment is equidistant from the beginning and the end of the demo.

Even if a fool speaks the truth, it is still the truth. (I think this falls into the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy.)

i won't disagree with your assertion that the truth is the truth. i appealed to nothing, and never claimed to have made a decision driven by academic modal logic.

Apparition could not possibly be cheating because of his "reputation"? Apart from being logically fallacious, what do you even mean with "reputation"? He has never been caught before? He has a high rating?

apparition could possibly be cheating or not, or cheating sometimes or at some time in the past and not cheating sometimes and some times in the past. apparition could possibly cheat some time in the future.

i believe the logical fallacies you're seeing are internally derived. the conclusions you've drawn from my post are antagonistic and based on inaccurate interpolations, which is a great indication of your character and intelligence.

what should i mean by apparition's reputation? i know that he is featured in faceit competitions and videos, and has won a xonotic (or some other minor arena fps) tournament. is there some aspect of his character you would like for me to be aware of?

But then why allow all the other threads about cheaters and not this one about apparition?

i haven't allowed all the other threads about cheaters, and i don't feel particularly strongly about whether or not the original post should have been deleted. i enjoy the spectacle of baseless accusations, public humiliation and shaming, mob mobilization, and petty melodrama as much as anybody, which is why i really enjoyed your post and am using my time to respond so thoroughly.

Also if the submitter suspects bias or partiality by the game devs regarding this case it makes sense to post elsewhere to inform and/or get feedback.

it's nice to invent imaginary scenarios that justify behaviors. this is often referred to as 'delusion'.

(edited out an insult, because i'm a great person who cares more about the topic than instigating anonymous internet users. :))

I was not making a judgment on whether or not he cheated.
And I can understand where you are coming from: "not another thread with cheating accusations from a noob. About a strong player no less." etc etc.
I just disagreed with your stated reasons for not approving the post.
But I do not care for a lengthy discussion about this. I said my piece (thx for allowing it btw), you said yours. Peace on earth. ;)

shalom, bruv.

Cheating was already out of control in NA long ago, even more so with aliasing. Quake is dead.

Shutup.

Deal with it. You're the one still playing.

Shutup.

Dealwithit.

Its the same in eu, just not quite as bad. What do you play now instead?

Nothing. There isn't a replacement for Quake and other games don't hold my interest over time.

About the demo. At some point apparition is standing still facing a wall. After a short little while he suddenly fires a rocket at the wall. Just happens to be also exactly at the spot where his opponent was (behind the wall).

Thank you for watching. I am sorry I don't know how to use wolfcam on Mac or I would make it easier for everybody to watch on youtube. This was very shady when watching on stream it was the finals of Duelcraft online cup with cash prize. I thought apparition just flicked a rocket to the wall which is always suspicious. I couldn't believe what I saw with shownormals on. I knew undertaker12 has used HUD timers in the past but this was an obvious aiming bot to me.

where's draven? and are you from pointgaming? if you are, why are you accusing app or cheating? unless i'm reading this wrong lol

do you have any proof about the timers accusation?? It seems like a cheat that is impossible to prove unfortunately =/

just a random rocket if you ask me

Link is dead?

i once had striking evidence on 4 demos against a very well known player who cheats very sophisticated. my harddrive pretty much exploded the other day and that bastard got away with it. share that stuff with trustful people at first. if they confirm you can go public.

who?

yeah - who?

not gonna accuse people without evidence.

"striking evidence"

pussy*

agent*

The skill levels too damn high now, its nearly impossible to detect cheating from one demo or even a handful unless they really slip up and even then can always be explained as some random weird quake shit. If you play with people over enuff time on a (at the least) weekly basis you start to notice things...(pre shooting lg prediction correct waaay more often than anyone else, never mistiming ever, consistently locating you when you are in walk/silent/not visual etc etc). anyone that remembers the 2009 2v2 tdm scene in NA and played enough in it can probably name at least one cheater who was never caught! :|

Just the sad reality we face playing a online competitive videogame that has prize money tourneys and attracts lots of social outcast ego maniac types :p Anyone that thinks the number of cheats in comps is zero is fooling themselves unfortunately =/ its never zero.

Just gotta put it out of your mind and try to have fun.

Yeah, I agree with you. QL admins need to IP ban apparition_ AKA undertaker12 now.

wow, thats something new, having fun while being sodomized.

so true. it's a desert filled with egos and cheaters. but somewhere we can find the fun, right?...right?

http://www.twitch.tv/apparitionql/b/425507863?t=2m40s

Apparition responds..and removes any doubt that he cheated.

Well it makes perfect sense.

If you watch the video closely, ok? you will notice that soooo... basically, so he kills him, and, well basically it looks suspicious. but uhm. ok. well. I don't know I guess he put his four fingers on uuuhm.. WASD keys and basically uum and the thing is uhm... I think he moved his hand quickly and THE THING IS uuhm.. for some reason the g400 he can't explain it.

Basically he moved his hand too quickly but I don't know I have no idea why that looks uh. like that.

Crystal clear explanation, all doubts removed.

I've never been one to explain odd situations like that, especially on mic, clearly. It is true though. Multiple times throughout the demo as i showed on stream with wolfcam my crosshair was positioned at an incorrect place which is because of my incorrect predictions. If I were walling you'd see many more of those type of odd situations. Also I might point out that I would never use the shownormals cmd to prove that I wasn't cheating if in fact I really was. Hope that was clearer for you.

The burden of proof is with the accuser, not the accused. In my opinion, you should have never replied to such claims unless the evidence was conclusive. I know you mean well and all, but they'll use everything you say against you without hesitation or mercy. ;)

P. S.: Stop talking about your crosshair position! :P

P. S. 2: You don't need to use r_shownormals, Wolfcam has a cg_wh (or something) var that's much more convenient.

Eh, I guess that's true.

You cheat and be prepared to be banned.

Of course, a hacker like apparition would deny it.

He can't fool us.

that was awkward

@Pointgamer: I deleted your "Apparition response to cheating" thread.

1) This is not "a speculative cheaters of QL" forum.
2) I appreciate the energy you keep putting into proving he cheated, but your efforts seem preemptively biased and you're not approaching this in a professional and/or objective manner.
3) He made a video on twitch addressing the issue with r_shownormals. He addresses the cheating accusation moment directly and has explained it to the best of his ability. You know this because in your thread, you linked the VOD in your accusation link, so I am not entirely sure what your goal is.

If you are concerned about his cheating, I suggest you use the relevant Support section of Quake Live to report him, along with all relevant data you have collected that may prove that he is cheating.

Additionally, you may use the official QL forum to raise and collect support among your peers in being convinced that he cheats.

now it's 'admins'.

Let the h8 start, followed by misplaced anger and antisocial behaviour of another CooloutAC clone. Just when I officially called the end of the "official QL forum backlash of CA professionals" officially over :( Officially

Actually, mods are supposed to delete hackusation threads immediately as it's against forum policy on the official QL forums.

[email protected] is where all these complaints should be going to, not cluttering up ESR/QL forums.

cheating isn't a closed door issue, there's no reason why accusations/discussion threads on cheaters shouldn't be allowed here.

Can you comment on the twitch footage of the incident in question? I'm sure id has a lengthy list of known autofire bots and how they work, what to look for, etc.

Played Quake for years and cheating is what made me stop playing QL a couple years back. It was easy to just quit when the blatant cheaters showed up on a server but this kind of cheating is more disgusting IMO because you think you're playing against someone legit and then BAM they hit a couple of 'clutch' shots when they feel momentum shifting and that's the game. WIth this type of bot, the footage in question is the _only_ way you will ever catch a cheater who is picking his spots right.

Apparition's trashtalking of Erebux in the game that is highlighted in the Faceit spring video also becomes more interesting in light of this. I believe all of those clips came from the same Aerowalk game against Erebux where Apparition rocket jumps at Erebux repeatedly and hits direct rockets on him.

"Freedom... Hah!" (c) NSA

PointGamer plz send me the worry you have and I will get my boys on it ASAP!!


thanks and make sure to visit #exposed on Quakenet