great bet !

I hope Kramnik take´s revenge!

plain scary that a computer that thinks over 1 million moves a second (or something) get's beaten by a man... simple amazing!

that's a draw.. not a win

Which part do you find less scary, to draw or to win over a computer? Still pretty amazing!

Humans have one major advantage, intelligence.

The human brain performs approximately 100 trillion operations per second. We all know that computers still can't compete with man when it comes to intelligence.

that's a very rough estimate
no human could 'perform' on that level for longer period of time,

computer strength lies in its consistency and knowledge (database of moves in this case),
only few humans have memory that could rival that of a computer

btw, Deep Blue from 1997 (sic!) is 40 times faster then Deep Fritz.

Deep Fritz is computer program only... Deep Blue is chess computer.

man can't beat best chess computer now.

"Yet while the power of computer chips has marched forward over the past five years, that doesn't necessarily mean these new cyberchamps would outperform Deep Blue. A chess-playing machine rather than a mere program, Deep Blue drew its awesome power from chips designed by Hsu to do nothing but play chess. The IBM team put 256 of these processors into a supercomputer, allowing it to analyze at least 100 million chess positions a second. Fritz and Junior, by contrast, exist as off-the-shelf software for PCs, which anyone can buy to play at home. The "deep" versions run on multiple Pentium processors–essentially, a battery of PCs–but they'll consider only around 2.5 million positions per second."

yup, i got fritz 7 on my HDD right now.

as for the brain stuff, my friend's bro gives good advice: you wont ever even use 10% of you brain, so do as much drugs as you want, just stop before you waste more than 90% of it

The same source that I got that estimate from proposes that the best GM chess players use only 3% of their brains. The rest goes towards sensory processing and other higher-level processing.

i've read that humans can only make use (counsciously) of about (up to) 5% of their brain

god, the next time i hear that useless 'fact' parroted, i'm going to hurt someone..

we use 100% of our brains.

That article proves nothing. They don't even understand what the 'common saying' really means. I've always taken it to mean that we only use some very small percent of our brain at any given time on one specific task. The article you referenced just states that ~100% of our brain is capable of functionality. MRI's have proven that our brains are not 100% active at any given moment and the article even states this! The common saying is still valid.

Oh, and the "parrot" you put down made a distinction between conscious and subconscious. Your article makes no distinction whatsoever.

well, that's your particular interpretation of the referentially ambiguous statement. they investigated it another manner, namely as a counterpoint to paranormal claims such as uri geller's:

"Our minds are capable of remarkable, incredible feats, yet we don't use them to their full capacity. In fact, most of us only use about 10 per cent of our brains, if that. The other 90 per cent is full of untapped potential and undiscovered abilities, which means our minds are only operating in a very limited way instead of at full stretch. I believe that we once had full power over our minds. We had to, in order to survive, but as our world has become more sophisticated and complex we have forgotten many of the abilities we once had."

in fact, most investigation of this myth focuses on dispelling the psychic.

however, although certain minor functions may use only a small part of the brain at one time, any sufficiently complex set of activities or thought patterns will indeed use many parts of the brain - just as you don't use all your muscle groups at any one time, chances are you will use most of them throughout the day.

"Oh, and the "parrot" you put down made a distinction between conscious and subconscious. Your article makes no distinction whatsoever. "

that's because there is no such simplistic distinction. there is not a conscious part of the mind that is used 10-20% of the time and a dormant subconscious where the other 80-90% goes unused. a subconscious that, if we could only tap, we would be able to perform all sorts of psychic feats..such as bending spoons. or, if not psychic spoon bending, at least improve memory or concentration.

i think that you're interpreting it as "only use 10% of our mental capacity" whilst i interpret this as "10% of our physical capacity". it's possible to test physical usage but mental usage is somewhat elusive. of course, such a large potential mental capacity is attractive but it is highly speculative without any scale to measure it on.

Speaking of Uri Geller, James Randi wrote an good book exposing him as the fraud he is. It's called The Truth About Uri Geller; interesting read. Randi even has set up a challenge that has been going on for years. He is willing to give 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove they have psychic powers under controlled conditions; this has been going on for years and no one has yet been able to pass the preliminary tests :P

i've heard about that challenge and i don't think that he's in any danger of losing his million dollars :)

A nice fixture.
After watching the replay I'm not so sure Deep Fritz will win. Not overly impressive. From what I could tell, it played too defensive, and the final move was just stupid.

From what I read in articles it was Kramnik who played defensive. Deep Fritz had more space to move but couldn't find a weak spot where to go offensive.

About that last move...there wasn't much that both sides could do anymore, sooner or later it would have been a draw said Kramnik.

the berlin wall was his tac iirc

sure fritz has the impressive numbers and is supposedly superior to all preceding chess 'puters BUT fritz is flawed. pyschologically and it will prove his undoing, deep blue was a cool name, about as cool as it gets in the chess world, but deep fritz? c'mon thats horrible, even by the standard set by karpov, kasparov and kramnick:)
gg bobby fischer

your name is acecool, i dont think you are in any possition to be insulting someones name

"your name is acecool, i dont think you are in any possition to be insulting someones name"

mmm and your name is ......................... exactly, frankly your argument is a joke, as was my post about Deep Fritz btw, it's just that my joke was intentional.

oh yeah, Fritz doesn't quite qualify as 'someone' , in this instance. :) gg anon.twat

fischer was the man!

yes he was ;p

its like a very very good quake bot vs a pro gamer
the bot may aim as good as he wonts, nothin can ever beat human tactics and courage

You can however simulate tactics...

no, it's actually nothing of the sort. se.com/columns/column.asp?pid=102>this chessbase column explains computer chess nicely.

um.... bullshit srpings to mind on that last comment..

I am not even going to attempt to explain why...look up the guy aboves link to learn more/......I quote from there: "Luckily seven-piece endings, which contain half a trillion positions each, are still a long way off. And even more luckily the two ends – openings research and endgame databases – will never meet. It is highly unlikely that anyone will ever see a computer which plays 1.e4 and announces mate in 40. But it is probably only a matter of time, of a few years or a decade, before a computer will consistently beat the human world champion in the game of chess."

Big bloody wibble tbh.

May you be victorious. gl Kramnik!

Game 2: Kramnik > Deep Fritz

The game is still going, it's very much over though.

it's over
man > machine :p

there's more games to come but,having read exactly what fritz is, i regret betting on it :x

man created machine, can a creation truly ever function on a higher level than its maker unless its maker instills free will upon that creation...and even then, is free will merely a limitation of the conscious human mind?

kasparov was unlucky, it happens. man will always be greater than machine, just as god is greater than man. we are all gods, to be honest. just read stranger in a strange land. :>

i did read it
and about the title of this fixture, i just named it like this because it looks better :p

yeah, i figured as much, but i was bored. :\

Even if machine wins chess, man WINS when baseball bat smashy.

This bet should have been closed before the first match ever took place..........

this fixture was posted after first match

shouldnt have been. If the first match already began this this fixture should have never existed. Its extremely unfair as those who bet after matches are going to bet with whoever has the lead, increasing their odds of wining. Thats not a proper bet. You dont see bets going down in the 4th quarter of a basketball game when xxx already has a 20 point lead do you?

those who bet earlier got better odds,
they knew that games had already been played, and they knew how many games are left,

it's not like a single basketball game, it's like a playoff series, and i see nothing wrong with it

Not to forget the first match was a draw, so it made little difference anyway.

hah, lol!
what makes it unfair as the first game was a draw? the odds were still equal at that point.

afaik after 3rd game it's 2.5 : 0.5 for Kramnik.

3 : 1 for Kramnik after 4th game

lol, deep fritz stronger than deep blue ?

"more advanced than Deep Blue"

it's true. Deep Blue is chess computer. fritz is very advanced chess program with "normal" hardware. more advanced program then deep blue :)

omg. great game. Kramnik made a little mistake in the end and lost match.

3 : 2 for Kramnik after game5.

Looked like a pretty big blunder to me, strange Kramnik would do something like that. Maybe just the exhaustion.

maybe he was tired. it isn't very easy to play on this level for a long time.

come on kramnik!

yeah :)

gogogo Kramnik...

I wish people would give Kasparov the credit he deserves.

"When Kasparov was beaten in the opening game, it was the first time a machine had beaten the world champion under such conditions.
Kasparov eventually won the match by three wins to one with two draws, after correctly diagnosing certain areas of definite weakness in the computer's chess understanding. When the position is not susceptible to direct calculation - when there are no capturing sequences or checks or similar forcing moves available - even a monster such as Deep Blue is liable to enter a planless dither and let its opponent systematically improve his position unopposed."

So you see that while Kasparov did lose the first battle, he did go on to win the war.

Actually he lost 3-2 (+1-2=2) in 1997. I know they played a match in 1995 when Kasparov won, but that was an earlier version of Deep Blue.

they played in 1996. Kasparov won 4.0 : 2.0

in 1997 Deep Blue won 3.5 : 2.5

machine will never beat human cause a computer cant think for himself, he cant create a new strat for himself, just like bots, they cant learn new things, like when a player find a new jump, the bot cant find new jumps (all the moves he know are allready known by the programmers) i hope you understant what i,m trying to say with my crappy english but i think you will get the point :P

there's little space left for invention when it comes to chess too - all first few moves and few ending moves are already categorised and stored in databases

you're wrong. Deep Fritz is good program. if fritz played on better machine (like deep blue in 1997) he would win 8:0 easily.

GO DEEP FRITZ!

until u level the score...

only just read this !!

interesting thread.

Would be nice to know how the program decides it next move ...

Im sure it would go for the percentage move each time, but how many moves ahead does it think?

A human might throw in an obscure move now n then to throw the oppositions mind, how would the program emulate this ?

ok i'm not totally sure, and i'm not very good at chess (a mere 1600+ a few months ago when i took a rating test), but from playing simpler chess programs (like kchess elite) and also playing fritz 7 on my comp, i have a bit of a grasp on how the computer will choose a move. first of all, for deep fritz 7 (which is the same as fritz 7), you can change the computer brain to different modes and different settings, letting it think ahead any number of moves, set time limits, make it more aggressive, or more defensive. you can make it favor closed or open games, favor knights over bishops, or anything of the sort. ok so anyways, the opening are pretty much straight from databases, probably chosen depending on the track records of all games in the database. like fritz might choose to play queens gambit because it has a high win %. after the opening, the simple computer programs that i can understand will look at one move at a time and calculate a set number of moves ahead and score each move according to its merits and drawbacks. like it will give plusses for gaining control of or attacking the center squares, allowing for more mobility (more choice of future moves), attacking more squares, or more important squares (like moving your knight forward), and stuff like that. minuses for creating backwards, double or isolated pawns, and negative stuff like that. an important thing is that fritz does sacrifice material if it pays off later, but everything it thinks is pretty limited to thinking a set number of moves ahead. i think that if a human can outplay a machine, it's either because their play styles are different or that the human can think farther ahead in the allotted time limit. a lot of the GMs rely a lot on instinct aswell.

i'm not sure, but i think most of the middle game is done without much aid from databases, but the endgame is mostly database, as is the opening to a lesser extent.

anyways, you can try out fritz 7 out for yourself. i found it on kazaa, but shhhhh! it was 42,436KB btw

oh ya and if anyone knows where to get a database of games that you can download, let me know. i'd like to have a nice collection of a few thousand games, right now all i have is a tiny chessmaster database, and the online one at chessbase.com

nice one. thanks :D

HI GUYS I AM DEEP BLUE FRITZ, BOW BEFORE ME. OR SUFFER THE WRATH

man, that was a HUGE mistake on Kramnik's part in game five. I bet he cried out a huge "D'oh!" after realising what he did with his queen.

Easy for you to say :P

maybe he's fisher trolling the esr boards

eh, not good. Deep Fritz won 6th game.

Kramnik vs Fritz - 3:3

2 more games to play

talk about suspense :p

yeah :)

but i think Kramnik will win 4.5 : 3.5...

so Chess is exciting after all. :D

I don't know, to me it seems that this match is fixed,
it's entertainment ...
Have you seen the mistake Kramnik made in game 5 ???
Man, even I had seen that he loses the figure (I'm currently rated 1936 in Chess). This is just ridiculous, I've never heard of any reigning world champion making such mistakes ...
And today ? Have you seen the game ?
He actually tried to outplay the computer *tactically*,
man, he prepared for the match and everyone knows that the computer outperforms the human mind in any tactical position. The only way to beat the computer is to overplay him positionally, as showed in game 2 and 3.
Such faults are not made by a world champion ...
the match is fixed, I predict 4,5 : 3,5 win for humanity,
remember they want to keep it exciting,
they do not want boring king-pawn-endgames ...

Don't be ludicrous.

any advice on good chess programs that i should look for? or know where to get a nice database for download?

The most popular free chess engine I know is crafty (plays grandmasterlike), but it's just an engine, you still need software to run it on ...
I believe Winboard (freeware, I believe that crafty is even included) is capable of running it, using winboard you can also play chess on the internet.
Concerning Database you can browse the chessbase database on the web or if you want to have program on your computer you can use scid (also freeware).
I'm too lazy to give you url's :)
Just google your way through ...

omg I was about to post something along the same lines. Yeh since it's not a tournament, more like an exhibition the people paying the prize money are interested in keeping maximum interest to the end, that way they get more publicity (King of Bahrain I gather). I predict a draw next game and the last game probably a win for Kramnik.

game 7 - to be played on 17th September
game 8 - to be played on 19th September


I guess that should be october, not september? :)

yes thx

Game 7 is a draw. How exciting now it's all going to be decided in game 8 ;)

yeah. very nice game.

Kramnik has played with black pieces... good. he will play white on saturday.

go Kramnik :)

Kramnik vs Deep Fritz - 3.5 : 3.5

It still can go EITHER way with the final game...

I'd like to know what will happen if Fritz gets a BSOD :)

go kramnik :>
I'm one game away from making 851$ (my biggest win ever) or losing 300$

DRAW!

game 8 draw on Kramnik's offer after 21 moves.

Final Score:

Kramnik vs Deep Fritz - 4.0 : 4.0

GG.

Game 8 drawn !!!
Final result : 4 - 4

NO COMMENT

Draw :-|

gah, lost 300$ ;/

draw!

/me lost E$'s :|

w9999999999999999999999999t!!!!

I swear I bet on a draw! What happened?!

That damn computer made me loose money :(

fux0r, I just lost 40$ that were meant to make me rich ;)

oh shit

ah ffs, i lost E$1300 betting on deep fritz