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News

Anima Gaming 4v4 TDM Showcase (126 comments)

( Major News: QL)

Posted by Mellow @ 22:23 GMT, 16 February 2011 - iMsg

Event: AGSS

Scheduled: 01:00 GMT, 17 February 2011 to 05:00 GMT, 17 February 2011
Schedule: Passed

This week, as part of the

Anima Gaming Showcase Series, 4v4 TDM will be displayed in the North American community. At least 8 teams are needed to complete the bracket, and sign ups are fast and easy. Simply message AG-whally in IRC with your team name, clan tag, and roster, and you'll be on the brackets before you can blink!

AG QL 4v4 TDM: Wednesday @ 02:00 BST. Single Elimination. Best of 3 series. High seed then low seed (drop drop pick pick). Map pool is deepinside, grimdungeons, intervention, purgatory, realmofsteelrats.

Team Rosters

VODs: QL.tv, icebox
Links: Brackets -

Edited by xou at 01:43 GMT, 17 March 2011 - 30363 Hits

14%

<< Comment #1 @ 02:49 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

yay 4 purgatory!

<< Comment #2 @ 03:00 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #1

need moar teams

<< Comment #7 @ 08:39 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #2

It's actually pretty amazing that six teams are down for this so far. I would say this is a step in the right direction to restoring some kind of a scene. I honestly thought it would be four or less =/

The goal in my mind is to get the scene to where it is in Europe with having two divisions for some leagues and stuff. TDM can be pretty overwhelming for div2 teams trying to play seasoned veterans every game. And with one day cups being the main format.. it can really be a bummer for an 8th seed in a single elim tourney to just get raped by EG once and be done with things for the night.

Small steps tho.. this is a step in the right direction. See you all on wednesday. =)

<< Comment #3 @ 04:07 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

davis

PURGATORY.
I shall see you all wednesday night

<< Comment #8 @ 09:02 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Anonymous (96.242.43.254)

lineup for these teams?

<< Comment #9 @ 10:35 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #8

Nx. The Next Level:

higgs
davjs
klown
w0nk0

dunno about the rest but I hear [9] has some profesionals onboard :0

<< Comment #4 @ 07:38 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix

this should be good :D

<< Comment #5 @ 07:53 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

adrenal1ne - Reply to #4

your mom.

<< Comment #6 @ 08:34 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #4

but theres no zero4 or sponsors!? How can it be good now fishstix??

<< Comment #32 @ 21:29 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix - Reply to #6

it would be a lot better with sponsors ;D

<< Comment #55 @ 14:29 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #32

That's what I'm shooting for. Good numbers = good sponsors.

<< Comment #56 @ 14:41 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

noctis - Reply to #55

yeah some ppl seem to think that players come with good sponsors and not the other way

<< Comment #10 @ 11:05 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Should have had dreadful place in the map list.

<< Comment #11 @ 13:10 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

cerb0z

No Dreadful Place? :(

<< Comment #18 @ 17:31 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #11

Americans don't play it (or really like it) nearly as much as Europeans.

<< Comment #26 @ 18:54 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

yikes - Reply to #18

Just like NTF. :D

<< Comment #37 @ 22:36 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #18

what gives you that impression? NA players just take eons to learn new maps. We're all slowly learning this one finally and mostly all feedback I've heard is positive. The only people who don't want to play it are the people who don't bother to learn new maps.. But there is always next time for dreadful place :)

<< Comment #44 @ 23:48 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

FienD - Reply to #37

We started putting more games in on Dreadful Place recently and it's really growing on us, would like to see it in a regular map pool for TDM tournaments

Edited by FienD at 23:50 GMT, 15 February 2011

<< Comment #57 @ 14:48 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #37

Well then if I do 4v4 TDM again, the map pool will most likely be deep inside, dies irae, dreadful place, grim dungeons, and purgatory.

<< Comment #63 @ 19:48 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #57

that pool rapes

<< Comment #64 @ 19:54 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #63

Triple D's, amirite? :D

<< Comment #79 @ 22:40 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

ZeritoN - Reply to #11

Dreadful Place is probably the best pickup map (playing without teamspeak anyway).

I don't think NA scene progresses too much though. I see them still playing games on DM7 :|

<< Comment #81 @ 22:49 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

cerb0z - Reply to #79

Get rid of dm6 is enough for beginning :)

Edited by cerb0z at 22:53 GMT, 16 February 2011

<< Comment #12 @ 13:16 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

noctis

awesome pool :D

<< Comment #13 @ 13:38 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

frs - Reply to #12

lols, go fuck a kangaroo or w/e you australians do

<< Comment #14 @ 13:45 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

noctis - Reply to #13

can't even state a simple opinion anymore without being insulted =/

<< Comment #21 @ 17:55 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #12

Thank you!

<< Comment #15 @ 14:51 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

EddieF4

so who's in cloud 9?

<< Comment #16 @ 15:12 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

w0nk0

czm/rapha/clock/fiend

whally u doofus put this in the main post man.

o and about the other teams, i suspect ci is plague/whaz/nomadic/allmental, dunno who is going to play for ds other than syn, and the only person i know on xux is kwong.

edit2: hopefully dahang/vj can find a couple of others and play as well.

Edited by w0nk0 at 15:14 GMT, 15 February 2011

<< Comment #22 @ 17:57 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #16

I asked them both and neither of them gave me a definitive answer. I hope they can pull an EG line-up like DaHanG, viju, id_, and gwc or something.

<< Comment #17 @ 17:29 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow

I put the team rosters to the best of my knowledge.

<< Comment #19 @ 17:51 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

incanu7

How come no kgb?

<< Comment #20 @ 17:55 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #19

He told me, "I will play in the CTF games, but I won't support TDM because I don't want id seeing a rise in activity and possibly choose it for QuakeCon".

<< Comment #23 @ 18:15 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

0x5f3759df - Reply to #20

lol

<< Comment #24 @ 18:24 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #23

I know right?

<< Comment #29 @ 19:06 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

incanu7 - Reply to #20

are you fucking kidding me :D
this is hillarious

<< Comment #39 @ 23:39 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

butcher_kgp - Reply to #20

lol wut!

<< Comment #45 @ 00:22 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

EddieF4 - Reply to #20

Then we might actually see more than 4 good teams at quakecon?

<< Comment #50 @ 01:37 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

oneroomdisco - Reply to #20

That kind of attitude is just sad.

<< Comment #51 @ 04:57 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

SyncError - Reply to #20

The rise in TDM's activity has been noticed over the past year. I'd like to think it has something to do with the many additions made to the QL TDM map pool. I'm glad to see several leagues pick TDM up and look forward to it being played in upcoming LAN events (DH).

<< Comment #53 @ 07:00 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

essdee - Reply to #51

www.QuakeNight.com ... takes note.

<< Comment #69 @ 21:14 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

w0nk0 - Reply to #53

start the qn league again after the tourney? or perhaps after iem finals.

<< Comment #52 @ 06:12 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #51

I agree. There are a lot of good (some old, but still good) TDM maps available for pools which should be completely taken advantage of. Although people do wish for more CTF maps, I think the release of new TDM maps will bring back the desire to play the gametype.

Regardless, TDM or CTF both have their moments of exciting matches and boring matches. It just comes down to the teams and their styles of play. I'll be there at QuakeCon with John helping in any way I can.

<< Comment #59 @ 16:17 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Anonymous (68.59.124.46) - Reply to #51

CTF might have a similar rise in activity if you released some decent maps for it. There have been a rediculous amount of new TDM maps while id pays little to no attention to CTF. TDM gets competitive maps, and CTF is given such laughable maps as "Skyward...."

<< Comment #62 @ 17:00 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

pl4gue - Reply to #59

be quiet kgb

<< Comment #67 @ 20:41 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

oneroomdisco - Reply to #59

CTF has had the most support in the history of QL.

<< Comment #119 @ 18:20 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Teen Queen | - Reply to #59

Can't spell ridiculous in your native language D:

<< Comment #65 @ 19:54 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

FienD - Reply to #51

And possibly another LAN event taking place in August? :}

<< Comment #75 @ 22:09 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

per1klez - Reply to #20

isn't he like 0/12 for winning anything at quakecon?

<< Comment #117 @ 18:00 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

clampOK - Reply to #75

I've made sure of that for 4 years now ;)

<< Comment #118 @ 18:17 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Teen Queen | - Reply to #20

How dense can someone be?

<< Comment #28 @ 19:04 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Anonymous (66.146.192.95)

cl0ck/czm together? raaaaapeeee.

<< Comment #25 @ 18:32 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Jezper

cha0ticz? wow....haven't seen him play in a while now

<< Comment #27 @ 18:55 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

yikes

Nice! Should be good games.
GL HF!

<< Comment #30 @ 19:53 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

tdm outcome prediction can fall to the Fallacy of Composition sometimes...where you might have several "name" players on a team losing to a team of lesser knowns. Look at the recent France/Denmark match.
Sure adding rapha or czm to your team is a tremendous boost, but 20mins of dynamic, changing gameplay over several different areas with all four teammates in tight coordination/communication bears little resemblence to a duel ofc.

<< Comment #31 @ 20:29 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

frs - Reply to #30

juvenile and vium are probably the 2 hottest names in euro tdm atm?

<< Comment #49 @ 01:26 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

evilbollweevil - Reply to #31

yea i kinda was focusing on the idea of well-known dueler names comprising a team, and the fallacy of thinking that adds up to guaranteed success in tdm.
Kinda like in music when you have well-known artists from successful, but broken up bands get together and form what's called a "supergroup" -- not a solid history there of making great music.

<< Comment #120 @ 18:22 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Teen Queen | - Reply to #49

Good dueller doesn't necessarily mean he's good at TDM and vice versa.

<< Comment #54 @ 09:05 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Arcita - Reply to #30

czm was more more well-known for his tdm skills than his 1v1 game back in the day when cK was a beast on the american tdm scene

<< Comment #33 @ 21:31 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix

cl0ck, fiend, rapha, czm

O_O;

<< Comment #34 @ 21:33 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

duumed

czm \:D/

<< Comment #35 @ 21:45 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

uPro x1t

when it will be? CET of EET plz.. thx

<< Comment #36 @ 22:35 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

vile_

Where's the reformed Stickmen at?

<< Comment #38 @ 22:50 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #36

I ask them every event and they always refuse, saying they aren't really a team yet.

<< Comment #43 @ 23:48 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

wch - Reply to #38

Scared.

<< Comment #40 @ 23:39 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

br1ck

add dreadful place to the maplist kthx!

<< Comment #41 @ 23:41 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

br1ck

=/ no hidden fortress

<< Comment #90 @ 00:48 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

ZeritoN - Reply to #41

Hidden Weapon, Flying Machinegun

<< Comment #98 @ 06:55 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #41

its terrible 4v4!

<< Comment #121 @ 18:24 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Teen Queen | - Reply to #98

its terrible ~~4v4!~~

There we go.

Edited by Anhedonic at 18:25 GMT, 18 February 2011

<< Comment #42 @ 23:44 GMT, 15 February 2011 >>

By

Only matches a self respecting quake player needs to watch is c9 vs Nx. in semis and the final which is most likely c9 vs [ci] unless Nx. breaks the so called "name" barrier.

<< Comment #46 @ 00:24 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

EddieF4

Now I see the team members. Some of the teams haven't gotten their 4th member?

Edited by EddieF4 at 00:25 GMT, 16 February 2011

<< Comment #47 @ 00:29 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #46

They probably do but just haven't told me.

<< Comment #48 @ 01:05 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

w0nk0

would be awesome to have dahang/vj/griffin/gwc tbh. altho i seriously doubt that will happen.

<< Comment #58 @ 16:12 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

I know I'm no good but if a few other american/canadian /esr/tards wanna play some tdm under said esr tag, I'm down.

We wont win anything but it'd be nice to get more teams in this.

<< Comment #60 @ 16:55 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #58

There's already a clan called TROLL which fits perfectly :>

<< Comment #61 @ 16:57 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

0x5f3759df - Reply to #60

aha

<< Comment #74 @ 22:02 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

yikes - Reply to #58

Agreed. If it's after about 9 EST and on an IL/VA/GA/NY server I should have 120-250 ping, on top of it. haha :D

<< Comment #106 @ 15:08 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

f0cus - Reply to #58

ya know what? I'm down. I'll hop on after work and try to get my config worked out. I haven't played q-live in awhile, but I still hop on pubs on q3 now and then. add me, 'f0cus' .

haha, didn't realize this was getting played yesterday. Nevermind :P

Edited by focus at 15:16 GMT, 17 February 2011

<< Comment #109 @ 16:18 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

0x5f3759df - Reply to #106

hey, who's to say we can't play anyways? =)

the little tourney went well, we could always be part of a team for the next one!

Edited by rushhh at 16:20 GMT, 17 February 2011

<< Comment #66 @ 20:33 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow

DaHanG signed up with a group. I don't know who their 4th player is though. Seeds will most likely be random tonight seeing as how these teams are so incomparable.

<< Comment #68 @ 21:12 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

klaovhwN - Reply to #66

some following of TDM will give you a good idea of team seeds.

ask any of the better known players for seeds, instead of random imo.

random seeds will be bad.

;\

Edited by klaovhwN at 21:12 GMT, 16 February 2011

<< Comment #70 @ 21:29 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #68

I shuffled the brackets 12 times. Each setup was terrible, haha.

<< Comment #72 @ 21:53 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

klaovhwN - Reply to #70

shuffling 12 times is still random ;p

haha oh well.

<< Comment #73 @ 21:54 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #72

Yeah, but at least 7/12 of the setups ended with [9] or Scoob last seed.

<< Comment #80 @ 22:48 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

klaovhwN - Reply to #73

nice work on the seeds, they look a lot better tbh.

unless they were random, /me pats randomgenerator(6)

<< Comment #83 @ 22:54 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #80

I gave up on the generator, so thank you.

<< Comment #71 @ 21:51 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix

can we get this thread bumped to the top of ESR again pl0x? Stream starts in ~3 hours

<< Comment #76 @ 22:23 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

xou - Reply to #71

done

<< Comment #77 @ 22:25 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

xou

It's about time you guys move over to quakenet...

<< Comment #78 @ 22:30 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #77

We have channels on Quakenet and Gamesurge. Qnet is for Q3 and/or European events. Gamesurge is for American QL events.

<< Comment #82 @ 22:50 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

xou - Reply to #78

I meant AMERICA!

<< Comment #84 @ 22:55 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

0x5f3759df - Reply to #82

FUCK YEAH!

<< Comment #85 @ 23:09 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #84

Coming again the save the mother fuckin' day, yeah!

<< Comment #86 @ 23:23 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

incanu7 - Reply to #85

VODs as soon as possible (ie by tomorrow evening CET) would be much obliged.
working class Europe thanks you.

<< Comment #87 @ 23:25 GMT, 16 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #86

own3d.tv is pretty good about uploading recorded VODs within 12 hours of the stream.

<< Comment #88 @ 00:05 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

scowl - Reply to #87

huh? The guys from QL.tv will have to upload the VODs.
And afaik, they aren't known for doing this 12 hours after the stream.

Edited by scowl at 00:06 GMT, 17 February 2011

<< Comment #92 @ 00:48 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #88

Those are the edited VODs on youtube. Recently they have had the normal recording from own3d.tv within a day or less.

<< Comment #89 @ 00:06 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix - Reply to #77

agreed :P

<< Comment #91 @ 00:48 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

ZeritoN

DEMOS.

<< Comment #104 @ 09:23 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

higgs - Reply to #91

I would love to see raphas demos from the finals! =)

<< Comment #93 @ 00:57 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

FishStix

DING DING DING DINGDING DING DING DINGDING DING DING DING

let's do this :)

<< Comment #94 @ 02:16 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Scooby incoming!

<< Comment #95 @ 04:25 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

pks

ultrafrag xtreme vs scoob finals DO IT

<< Comment #100 @ 07:15 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Anonymous (129.59.180.12)

Even the czm team would probably get raped by Reason, 4Kings, or Fnatic.

<< Comment #101 @ 07:19 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

pks - Reply to #100

What is wrong with you? Fucking grump ass with nothing better to do than bitch that people are enjoying things you don't.

<< Comment #108 @ 15:48 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #100

Most likely. But we're not in Europe, nor does anyone care. It's a game and everyone who watched or played the games enjoyed having a bit of TDM revival.

<< Comment #112 @ 15:41 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

noctis - Reply to #108

keep going with tdm!

<< Comment #114 @ 16:58 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #112

I am. I will most likely make the 2v2 TDM a 4v4 event again with a different pool (deep, dread, dies, grim, and purg maybe).

<< Comment #96 @ 05:53 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

pks

ggs ufx, fun to watch!

<< Comment #99 @ 07:14 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Anonymous (129.59.180.12)

CTF > TDM

<< Comment #97 @ 05:56 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow

great games tonight, I hope everyone enjoyed watching!

<< Comment #102 @ 07:21 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

sLowbi

VODs are up!

http://www.own3d.tv/quakelivetv (Everything except CI vs. D|S --- Greased will upload this VOD when he is able --- and Nx. vs. Scoob)

http://www.own3d.tv/sLowbi (Nx. vs. Scoob and HQ VOD of Finals)

Enjoy!

Edited by sLowbi at 07:21 GMT, 17 February 2011

<< Comment #103 @ 09:04 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

higgs

edit: nvm (spoilers)

Edited by higgs at 09:05 GMT, 17 February 2011

<< Comment #105 @ 14:55 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

skint

someone mentioned stickmen reforming, whos playing for them nowadays?

<< Comment #107 @ 15:47 GMT, 17 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #105

No one. They don't play anything besides public CA.

<< Comment #110 @ 14:57 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

T1E '

please start to use regular keel green brightskins for nmemodels, quake-live.tv, I closed the stream last year at qcon ctf, i did the same here....

look at lvl^, if they are pulling it off why shouldn't you be able to?

edit: am I the only one complaining about this?

Edited by t1e at 15:02 GMT, 18 February 2011

<< Comment #111 @ 15:28 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #110

No. I actually do think lvlup's cfg is way better. I don't know why Greased has team models set to visor and keel.

<< Comment #113 @ 16:54 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

AdoreSP - Reply to #111

does anima gaming have proper website?

<< Comment #115 @ 16:59 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #113

We were having one developed but the programmer disappeared about 2 weeks ago. I haven't been able to find a replacement, so our website is just sitting unfinished.

<< Comment #116 @ 17:04 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

AdoreSP - Reply to #113

k thx

Edited by AdoreSP at 17:04 GMT, 18 February 2011

<< Comment #122 @ 19:24 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

per1klez - Reply to #110

So you turned off the stream cause you didn't like the enemy models and you post about it here whining how its unwatchable.

What was about to be a flame just settled because of how fucking stupid you sound to anyone who reads this.

ps - Whally, pls keep the enemy models the way they are so these kids won't have anything to do with tdm.

<< Comment #123 @ 21:10 GMT, 18 February 2011 >>

By

0x5f3759df - Reply to #122

whally has no control over enemymodels, he is not the streamer nor affiliated with any streaming crew

:E

<< Comment #124 @ 17:06 GMT, 19 February 2011 >>

By

Jehar

It's kinda funny, because at Quakecon, irc/esr posts were full of rage and bitching about how the config used team/enemy brights. The bitching just would not stop until red/blue was set. Kinda funny how you can't please everyone. :P

<< Comment #125 @ 17:23 GMT, 19 February 2011 >>

By

Mellow - Reply to #124

My personal preference is just no team models and a green keel. As long as the stream configuration is smooth and clean, I really don't care. Believe me, I've learned the hard way that not everyone will be happy with how you organize yourself.

<< Comment #126 @ 08:54 GMT, 20 February 2011 >>

By

booberry

I hope everyone enjoyed watching these games between players we rarely see present themselves in this game. I know I did.

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