Just incase:

It's been a honour ESR.

Screw you.

I call all of ESR's hate upon you!

wowowow, think before you comment, this could get nasty :(

Well it looks like no one is listening so I wouldn't worry. It would be cool if I had that power though!

Well, he didn't use any of the right incantations, such as Bafta...


....shit

I'm so gonna lhc those baftas

second link is mad old

So long and thanks for the fish.

see you in another dimension guys!

I dunno, I mean the sun constantly emits the energy of millions of the most powerful nuclear warheads per second and even that won't turn into a black hole but a tiny piece of matter moving in a circle pretty fast might just manage it, I mean we don't know for sure right? Science n' shit, quasars

Ja cos u block the sun with your body and shield the earth. :@

ebb and tide is caused by Liam's commute to work.

not even the higgs boson can explain liams mass

if liam was moved at 10 m/s on circular tracks his mass would induce a black hole

Liam's feet have aged more than his knees.

INSERT FAT JOKE OF YOUR CHOICE HERE AND [+] ME.

The Big Bang Theory states: The Universe was created by Liam after a night of binge taco eating.

when liam sits down @ the beach GreenPeace comes and pulls him back to the water

Liam's fat.

The earth doesn't orbit around the sun; it orbits around Liam.

The dark flow was discovered after a night of Liam enjoying mexican food.

Liam jacked the Kool Aid man for a sip

Liam's so fat his ass is called the event horizon because light emitted from his black hole will never reach an observer

flash forward.

nice knowing you all

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1835#comic

hahaha

A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

OMG

"There's something very important I forgot to tell you. Don't cross the streams… It would be bad… Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light."

—Egon Spengler on crossing proton streams

quit an original death, don't you think?

isn't it postponed?

12.05pm: Gooooaaalllll!
We have collisions. The detectors are not yet fully on and taking data, but particles are colliding.

no livecams?

theres apparently some video supposed to be here:

http://webcast.cern.ch/lhcfirstphysics/

yeah..theyre now replaying the live feed of reactions, press conferences and two guys in tokyo drinking 91' wine

There was at http://webcast.cern.ch/lhcfirstphysics/

Could also monitor the experiments on http://lhc-webcast.web.cern.ch/lhc-webcast/index.html but it seems that events have stopped occurring now.

<insert whine about missing GTV and physics being dead for 10 years>

cpma physics >>> this shit

get arqon to geneva, asap!

Why scared? IS LAZERY

Stupid laymen and some nutty scientists voiced concern

Neverending story of humanity: not so stupid if the apprehension comes true, but in this case there is no fix, so.....

Radioactivity was all fun and miracles until the destructive nature was revealed

Genetic engineering is cool to maximize profits, but in a good time if bio science advances further it might be the same as with radioactivity.


HOW CAN YOU KNOW BEFORE YOU REALLY KNOW?????

what I meant is it is healthy to be sceptic, it is retarded to just 'believe' everything will go on smoothly.

I wouldn't be surprised if the facts are not even straight yet about what could really happen. I sure hope they are.

It's not any more retarded to speculate about what could happen then to speculate about what would be impossible to happen.

Which is better: to be sceptic at first, but to learn otherwise - or, to believe, but to learn otherwise

1. The whole point is that we don't know exactly what will happen. There is no sense to make an experiment that we know outcome of. This is how scientific progress takes place: we do something we haven't done before and see what happens.
2. We know pretty well that particle collisions are safe because they constantly occur in our atmosphere and at energies much, much higher than those in LHC.

Any more questions?

No questions :) Thank you, that was the point I also tried to make. There are unknowns involved, so ridiculing the fears of people is kind of like saying: 'whoever is in fear of dieing is an idiot, because statistically it will happen at his sixtieth birthday'. No! His fear is realistic, it is intelligent! It is not healthy, or not adequate to the situation, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give an adequate response, especially if you are talking about a serious topic (like science for example).

that is exactly what you *NEVER* do
you work on a theory and then try to prove it - you don't just do *something* and look what's going to happen

Of course we don't do *just* something (and I never implied that), but the reason why we actually try to prove theories experimentally is precisely that we're not sure what is actually gonna happen. Without experiment, a theory is just a hypothesis, it can hint us what could happen, or how we should set up the exeriment to gain most information out of it, but a hypothesis can't tell us what will happen. As I said, the whole point of making such experiment is that we don't know it's exact outcome beforehand. If we knew, there would be no need to do it.

Well, the energy of the colliding particles is not greater than that of a jumping flea. By conservation of energy it follows, that it is impossible to inflict great damage with the collision itself. It would probably be more disastrous if part of their auxiliary machinery exploded or the experiment got attacked by 'science terrorists'.

I think it's not the energy level that's alarming for people, more the bad feeling about simulating something close to the starting point of the universe, and then the phantasy is running wild.

I quote from a link given in your link about odds of occurences:

Something that Has Never Been Predicted: 50%. Here is my favorite thing to root for. Particle theorists have been coming up with new models for so long without being surprised by new experimental results, some of them have forgotten what it’s like. Nature has a way of throwing us curve balls — which is not only something to be anticipated, it’s something to be very grateful for. Surprises are how we learn things.

This together with telling the world nothing could happen makes me wonder...SURPRISE: THE WORLD ENDS!

btw. I keep reading 'particle terrorists' xD

if you are so inclined, fine. but keep in mind that it might be just a disinclination to commit to the discipline of gathering valid information before speculating something out of the blue, thus insinuating that the scientist working on the problem, are not capable of estimating risks

I can't comment on the validity or reputation of either side, that of the physicists working with the LHC or those thinking about worst-case scenarios. But I know what kind of attitude can lead to massive failure, and what kind of attitude is healthy as a scientist, and that is to be sceptic, to be cautious, to stick to thinking and not get emotional about any topic.

to be sceptic, to be cautious, to stick to thinking and not get emotional about any topic.

yes. but if they stick too much to scepticism and caution instead of thinking, people might still not be using cars.

I personally think all the risks the were taken when developing nuclear bombs and even now with the Iter reactor are a lot worse than that black hole bullshit.
At least I once read something that the nuclear physicist weren't sure they wouldn't cause an unstoppable reaction with their first nuke...

I didn't mean sceptic in the sense of stalling, but in the sense of making sure the risks are manageable.

I personally think there isn't much personal gain to get from those experiments in cern so I do not worry. But what if there was? What if a small group of scientists disregard all caution and disregard all critique?
They have to prove first that the risk is manageable! Else every other topic of modern research is becoming a timebomb.

And that is why it is retarded to just disregard warnings emotionally ('stupid', 'ridiculous', 'bullshit') instead of taking them seriously and adressing them.

I know we are not knowledgeable to discuss nuclear physics, so we shouldn't even have an opinion.
So only the involved scientists can discuss them. So they MUST not have personal gain, and then MUST NOT be emotional and take their work personal, because when they do, they will do stupid things.

It's the same with politicians btw. If they wouldn't be allowed to earn any money besides their main job, and if they'd get good salaries well above average, they would not be corrupt. This is my belief. If there is no gain involved in immoral behaviour, almost every human will act moral.

Only problem is, those corrupt politicians would have to make that laws, which they won't....

Oh god, I'm Jonesy :(((

Vague anti-science sentiments aside, what exactly are you trying to say? Are you accusing CERN of not having considered possible risks?

I'm accusing the world of being controlled by economic interests. I do not have anti-science sentiments, if it sounded like that it was unintentional.

No I'm saying cern is the one place were important science is done without obvious financial interests, so the scienetists there might be the most unbiased. Still they might ridicule serious fears, which is not smart in my opinion. And everyone else who can't disprove those fears should really not take sides, because they have no deep knowledge and are only acting emotional.

I mean I know I have no clue about those topics, that's why I can only adress the topic on a meta-level. And one thing that struck me as weird is how emotional people are talking about those topics, doesn't make sense.

what is supposed to be the economic interest behind CERN? Sell Bosons as souvenirs?

On the other hand destroying the world would pretty pretty much result in the biggest economic loss possible.
Yes, it might be the only way for the Iceland to get rid of their debt, but still ... ;)


Nah seriously, I think it's one of the times were wannabe smart people get on the nerves of people who actually know their stuff.

Imagine you were using a straw to drink a soda in a bar. Then a guy asks you to stop that, because you might suck the air out of the room and suffocate him. You might explain the situation calmly to him at first, but if he keeps insisting you should stop using the straw, you start to ignore him. Then he gets mad and demands you should take him seriously he know exactly what a vacuum is. That is the point were I would call him a moron.
(Yeah, the example isn't that good cause not using a straw doesn't mean you lose much, but I think you get my point)

wow I just had an incredible session of thinking, writing, deleting....

So, in short you say you trust those scientists doing those experiments?
This might be one of the few unbiased fields of study that still exist, just because there is no immediate gain, everything else, where there is immediate gain, is already bought. That's what I don't like with modern science. Oh, that might have been the 'anti-science sentiments'

Well, I don't know enough about those scientists and the physics involved that "trusting them" might not be the correct term.
But on the one hand I do trust the scientific system in such a field enough that all risks of such a project will have been evaluated. On the other hand, some of those black hole theories Iread looked retarded even to my amateur knowledge. So they must look like an insult to someone who knows his physics.

And the CERN project has a long time of retarded criticism (see their statement because of "Angels & demons). Funniest I heard thing was the pope visited the site back when they started researching antimatter. He was looking for the antichrist (not sure if it's true tho).


Anyway, the reactions to those balck hole accusations, not necessarily the official ones, reminded me a lot of how I would react to the guy in my example.


tl;dr:

Trust in the scientists may be the wrong term, but I do trust in the scientific process.

The human brain has to ridicule fears all the time if it wants to function. If we worried about everything that could happen, it would bring us to a state of sluggishness or paralyzation. Can I take the next step and be sure, I don't break my ankle, can I eat this and not get sick, can I pass the street without getting hit by a car. The next second everything can go wrong but with our models of nature or life experience we can make the next step because we believe in regular patterns and therefore can apply methods of statistics etc.

I agree! I would say we more or less take those risks already in our everyday lives. That's blisful ignorance, it is needed.

Still, taking risks with experiments where ridculously high energy is being used, or produced, is of another quality. There *might be* bigger risks involved, unknown risks noone could predict, risks that might concern the whole of humanity.

I don't want to twist the discussion. You all made it very clear to me (while I could not verify), that those experiments at cern are not dangerous in that line of thought. What I was talking about was, it could be, and we wouldn't know!
So when scientists start to act unprofessional it makes me sceptic and gives me a feeling of 'they might try to cover up the dangers'.

I'm sceptic of nature, and I wanted to tell you about the benefits. Re-reading the discussion I realize I shouldn't have talked so much about the LHC (which I tried to use as an example) but made it more clear I wanted to talk general terms.

shut the fuck up really

Now I will keep talking all day long :D

I am aware that most people won't be able to comprehend what I wrote. Maybe it can't even be understood at all. I blame the language barrier.

I made one initial post with a point I tried to make, and then I made serveral posts only trying to explain my point.
I know from a dumb point of view, and also keeping in mind this is esr, it might look like I was 'arguing' and twisting so not to admit defeat or losing face. I wasn't. That's why I just outright said that. That's why my first sentence blatantly said I agree. That's why I admitted to have changed my view on the LHC. Still, that wasn't my point, else I wouldn't have written so much text for nothing.

To be real honest, I am writing for my own selfish reasons, not for the sake of discussion or because I think I can give anything to esr users.

I'm no troll, and I am not stupid. But I have weird opinions on many topics. I have no problem with admitting being wrong, failing. But like any person, I have a problem with people jerking off to it and getting kicks out belittling me, because in reality, that's just a matter of perspective.

There are plain dumb (in, ignorant, close-minded) opininons and things to say, and there are different opinions that do not hurt anyone. Learn the difference.

yawn rly

edited really to rly....

yawn all you want. but you also know I owned you with honesty while you are just afraid to show anything that could make you vulnerable

you're such a winner

I am? Why thanks!

I think it's not the energy level that's alarming for people, more the bad feeling about simulating something close to the starting point of the universe

This is what happens when people listen to the media before they listen to the science. Your only argument is "they can't disprove these risks"... Can you show me a scientific publication which is making a serious claim that there are "world-ending" risks in the first place?

tldr; There isn't a risk.

Ok, maybe there isn't. That was not my point, but I cba to rephrase, it is not that important.

what exactly is your point, seriously?

But just to be sure. GG respawn in hell, I hope.

i smashed a door today, and im not in the news!!

That's because you didn't smash the door into Liam.

Which is quite impossible, except you smash a garage door considering how fat he is.

Don't they know you have to be at least a level 17 Wizard to cast Sphere of Ultimate Destruction?